Interview with Jon Foster

On Tuesday, Ryan Kingslien and Jon Foster sat down for a conversation, artist to artist:

Ryan Kingslien

So tell me about your education, because you're spanning the 2D and 3D. And you've been at this game for a bit, so talk to me about your education, like where did you go to school, where did you get started?

Jon Foster

I went to ... Well I didn't go to art school right away. I wasn't a very good high school student and I didn't know what I wanted to do, and so I did go to a local college after graduating high school. But after a year and a half without any real direction I left. I was still living at home with my father and he's a military man, he says, "That's fine but you gotta get a full time job and pay a little rent." Which wasn't anything terrible. So worked full time for a year and thought about what I wanted to do, and reapplied to schools.

So I reapplied and decided that I wanted to go to art school. I'd always liked art but I wasn't the art kid in high school, and my art teachers actually hated ... Well probably just because I was an obnoxious kid. I mean I wasn't precocious, I was more just argumentative, kind of thing. But I didn't get into some of the schools, I didn't get into Rhode Island School of Design or the one I wanted to, but I got into Parsons in New York, but under academic probation. That's how not ... That's how my portfolio wasn't looking that good and my grades weren't that good, but I only went for a semester and then I decided to apply myself. But by that time I was 21/22 and so applying myself I did get on the Dean's list, and I didn't actually like being in New York so I reapplied to Rhode Island School of Design and got in. And that's where I ended up going to school and finishing, and I graduated around when I was 25. I was 25, it was in '89.

But even then I was not a stellar student, I wasn't one that was gonna go out and get work right away. As a matter of fact it took me about eight years after graduating before I was working and making a living as an illustrator. And there were a couple of teachers that ... There was one teacher who told me I had to work very hard for mediocre results. It was pretty devastating. It was pretty devastating but I guess I had the useful and willful ignorance or just being able to look past certain things or maybe someone else's reality and try to make my own and stick with it. But it did take time too, and I still sometimes look back and wonder. I, as many people, have the whole Imposter Syndrome feeling, which, if you guys aren't familiar with that, it is basically that it's only been luck that you've had any success that you've had at what you've been doing and people don't know it yet but they could find out or it could come crashing down.

Ryan Kingslien

I think we're all pretty familiar with that one.

Jon Foster

Right, right. I didn't know if they were familiar with the term, but there is a clinical psychological term for it, Imposter Syndrome. And I still actually feel that at times.

So it was even years after I think my career started, basically around when I was 33. I'm 54 now, so it's been a good solid 20 years.

Ryan Kingslien

So in between turning 25 and graduating and your career starting at 31, must have been a lot of things happening in there. Did you know right away that you wanted to do illustration and covers and things like that or?

Jon Foster

That's actually a great question because when I graduated I thought I should be an editorial illustrator because that's basically what RISDE said. The idea of high concept, the visual pun, smart illustration. Brand Holland is a great example of that, and there are many. But to be an editorial illustrator was what everybody was pushing and thinking in the pinnacle, but I wasn't ... So I tried but I was rather dark in my work and it wasn't that witty in terms of visual play that way. And so I had a reassessment shortly after that, and that's when I started saying ...

When I got interested in art in my teens, I mean I was interested in art as a young kid right, you're drawing. And my mother drew and sketched and had art projects and I would sit down and draw with her sometimes. And so I was drawing like most everybody since you could remember, but the idea of science fiction and fantasy book cover work when I was in my teens and reading this stuff, that was there and strong but I kind of put it aside and thought well maybe it's juvenile or something like that. I'll be a more adult editorial illustrator. But then when I just realized that I wasn't gonna be an editorial illustrator, maybe wasn't even that interested, it's like I had to ask myself what do I really wanna do? What was I really getting into art and going to art school for? And it was for the comics, the science fiction and fantasy.

So I started remaking portfolios and going to small sci-fi conventions with very very little success, if any. But over the years trying and practicing, and practicing and practicing. So that was it. Of course there were jobs. I worked at an art store for several years, that was the full time job. And then the store closed down. Working at a Staples and working at a library, other kinds of retail jobs and stuff like that to try and make ends meet as much as you could.

So maybe that's why I kept at it, because I had a lot of jobs I really didn't wanna do.

Ryan Kingslien

That's nice. That works.

Jon Foster

It was incentive. It was incentive. And so I just ... So painting, painting, and trying and redoing. It's not like I painted 24/7, I mean there were times when there wasn't ... The fear in the beginning was a big problem. Fear to start the process. Fear that you'd be frustrated during the process. Or feeling like only at the tail end of a painting, when it looks like it's coming together and looking good, that you can enjoy it. That seemed like a mistake. Well it is, in retrospect, but it would keep me from starting things or procrastinating.

And later on when I did, I worked with Rick Berry for a couple of years, just together in his house as kind of a camaraderie thing. And he talked a lot about the process. And it was about the process. The whole process was exploring and finding. Even if it wasn't pretty through it, but the whole thing was like you're moving paint around, colorful mud. If it goes back to being a board it goes back to being a board. Nothing is really lost. You've learned something, even in something that doesn't seem to be a success.

And in that very first painting was one of the experiments I did, he advocated for ... This painting. He had advocated doing abstract work, and I actually advocate for it too, just playing with media and values and shapes and stuff. And I was still kind of stuck with wanting to make a painting but it at least didn't have people in it, it had a robot that could be whatever. And it was just about value, very simple values, almost monochromatic in shape. And playing with that. And this painting was an eye opener. I had fun, it was a whole thing. And I realized the whole process is what I want to enjoy. And that made a huge difference for me. I still have to remind myself of that nowadays. It's not like that was it and you just go forward and never have that mistake again, but it is a good reminder and I try to remind everybody to enjoy the whole process. It's why you're doing it.

Ryan Kingslien

That's a fascinating thing to talk about, because for many of us, and maybe you'll relate to this, like when we're first getting ourselves started there's so much learning. It's like we got all the anatomy problems, we got all of the ... It's just this is wrong, this is wrong, there's a million things that are wrong. So how do you enjoy that process? And is it something that you only enjoy once you've reached a level of mastery? Which is what many of us might think.

Jon Foster

Right, but it's not. At least for me it wasn't. I don't know that I'll ever reach a level of mastery. I mean it's an ongoing process, and one of the things in being honest with myself and being open to that is the idea that you don't get to a certain plateau or pinnacle of something and there you are and you just sit and it's fine. For one thing you wouldn't want to, you'd be bored. You'd be looking at the next mountain that you could climb.

The other thing is it just doesn't work like that, you need to ... You lose some things, you gain some things, life changes, you want to experiment, you want to stay actually ... Part of it is career oriented, you want to stay viable and a little bit on the edge so that you are useful I guess to art directors. And the other thing would be to not ... It seems to me that it's almost kind of over if you just have a formula and you stick to that formula and you always get the same results. And then there can be no more exploration and there's no more surprises and there's no more learning. And I think life is about always learning.

And so I mean the fact that I have to remind myself to enjoy the process or that I have to remind myself that maybe I'm not an imposter, that this stuff doesn't go away. You learn to deal with it better, you learn to understand it better, you understand yourself better. You're more honest with yourself. And in that you're actually growing.

Ryan Kingslien

What do you say to yourself when you have that imposter syndrome kind of creeping up? You can feel that you're, you know ...

Jon Foster

Sometimes I'll, well to be honest, and I should be, is I'll look at my work and say, "Well no you did this stuff. You did do this stuff. It can't be just a mistake." So I have a history that I can backtrack on and look at. In the beginning if you don't have that history I guess it ... I don't guess, it would be more difficult. But you're trying to make it.

The other thing is ... Well and the other thing is I just kind of say ... What I do is not so much as a ... In general I just say, "Well I'm just wasting my time." It's not so easy, you don't just turn it off by doing that, but a realization that this is not gonna get you anywhere. You're already working at being better, you're already working at being honest with yourself to make your improvements. Having something negative that's not provable and is more an insecurity bouncing around in your head, identify it. If it's negative there's really no positive benefit from it. I'm glad that people are ... You know you can be glad that you're not egotistical, you're not narcicisstic or overly so and thinking everything you do is great because that's blind, that's a certain kind of blindness too.

So part of that, actually part of that imposter syndrome is part of questioning yourself and questioning what you do still. And in those questions are growth. So it's not like ... you don't get rid of it completely but you just can't dwell too much in it obviously because you won't get anything done. And that's happened to me too, I mean ideas of depression or stressful times. I don't actually produce more when I'm depressed or have stressful times. I produce less. I'm not like a tortured artist that produces. Actually most artists that I talk to, when they are in a bleak place they're not producing. It's after that you are, kind of thing.

So through my childhood and young adult life I dealt with a serious case of OCD, and just being with the case that ... Which is obsessive compulsive disorder. And just the case that it was actually in the eighties and nineties, well early eighties and up until the nineties, starting in the nineties they got a better handle. It's not that complicated of a disorder, but they didn't really know what to do with it in the eighties. And one of the cognitive or behavioral ... I won't go into it any further but basically I had no idea, I just thought that I was totally a mess and life was gonna really suck. And so there was that kind of depression going on then, and I wasn't making any art. I wasn't making any art.

Ryan Kingslien

I totally get that. So what did you do different when you started this piece? Because this is the piece that you said really got you going, and this is the first piece that you really enjoyed doing. And this is the piece that I think most of us are familiar with this piece. It was on Spectrum, in the magazine. So what did you do that was different? Did you think about it different? Did you sit in a different place? What was difference?

Jon Foster

There are some concrete things about this and the process that was a little different. I did go in armed with the idea of I'm not going to fret over what this looks like through every step or what it will be when completed. I will play with the paint, I will redo brush strokes or I'll scrape away brush strokes. I will experiment. I will see what happens, and I'm not gonna direct this to a certain perceived point. And this actually is true for my work to this day. I don't have something that I think it should look like in my head that I work towards. The piece can take left hand, right hand turns, do a 360, whatever. It's gonna go where it goes.

Now of course I do have to manage that in terms of it being for a job, but I let the piece grow from where it is at that moment and not direct it to be an expectation of it to be something at the end. So that's a big point right here, is to explore through the process and be open for changes and revisions, and being willing to make changes and revisions.

The other part was that I did ... This is a very much more objective sense of change, was I just limited my palette. The palette on this was phthalo blue, burnt umber, white of course, black probably. And that would probably be it. There might be like a sienna or some maybe a earthy yellow like a ochre a little bit in there, but basically I kept a very monochromatic palette, which is something that I still do, even in my digital work, which I actually do in black and white for the most part. I don't start adding color in until later on, because color for me is another variable that throws me for a loop, and I get frustrated. So if I can work monochromatically then it's about values and shapes. And then I can explore and explore and explore with values and shapes, and it's my happy home. So limiting the palette was a big deal.

Ryan Kingslien

I remember hearing Odd Nerdrum would have his students copy in black and white his paintings.

Jon Foster

I didn't know that but I do teach some and a good half of the semester is about value and shape and composition. So even nowadays I'll be working things up to a pretty finished extent, not completely finished, but I don't know get like maybe 80% finished in the value stage, and then I'll start adding color in. By the way color is just not one more variable, it's actually like three. You have hue, saturation, and the value of the color itself too. So it's like so many other variables to throw into this that I needed to simplify.

Ryan Kingslien

Okay so for this painting, if I summarize, the key thing was that you limited the problems you were solving, you went into it and you decided I'm just going to play, and you committed to the process of just playing. And that's something that I heard you say earlier too because you were talking about how you deal with that Imposter Syndrome and one of the things I heard you say that at a certain point you just realize you're wasting time, because you're committed to the process of creating. Like what are you gonna do, are you gonna go get an executive job now? The point is you're gonna be an artist, that's it, so stop wasting my time with doubt.

Jon Foster

Right.

Ryan Kingslien

I love that.

Jon Foster

That's very ... I like the way you put it too in terms of like what are you gonna do, go be an accountant? Nothing against accountants but not for me. So a lot of this comes with years and maturity. Everything is newer and scarier when you're younger because of its newness. And after dealing with this over the years you see a pattern, you understand a pattern and you might even have a little bit more willpower to be a little bit more honest with yourself about these certain aspects with it. It's not like honest with myself like I suck, that's not it. It's more honest about why you have this fear. And what is this fear? It's probably more of an insecurity or a hesitation for some reason. Why are you hesitating about it? Because there's other reasons for those hesitations and fears, and it's not like I suck, it's other stuff. And being able to kind of look at yourself and address those things will just send you down the road to making art again.

Ryan Kingslien

And I was thinking, you've probably seen some artists come in, be really strong and burn out. Because you've been teaching for a bit, you've been in the illustration industry. So what you do think an artist really needs to do to be successful and not burn out or just eventually go back to flipping burgers or become that accountant? Maybe you've seen people do that. I certainly have.

Jon Foster

I think this would definitely depend on that artist, but ones that I've seen that have been incredibly talented, they kind of come in burning bright and early, and I think, and I'm not sure, but a theory on it is it might be too easy for them. And they can't have an appreciation I think for maybe even the excitement and the appreciation for growth and development and getting better. There's something about when you get better, that you do another job and you can tell in your own growth and it's looking better, there's something incredibly exciting and addictive about that. And having to work for something makes it that much more important to you. If you're not having to work for something it's so much easier to just like throw it aside.

And I don't mean to disparage anybody that just kind of burnt out on art or anything like that, because that would be sad in itself, but maybe coming too easy and losing interest or not having that ... Because it was easy there wasn't really a drive behind it in the first place. So a lot of good artists that I know, it wasn't particularly easy for them, there's a lot of drive. And working at it and a lot of passion about getting better and painting and learning, and I think that's a very important part. So the idea that some of us might feel insecure about not being right out of Zeus' head fully formed, that that's what we're supposed to be, but I don't actually think that is. And you have heard, and there's a lot of truth in the saying of genius is 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration. So that perspiration, that's where I'm living.

Not saying I'm a genius, I'm just saying that I'm still working at the perspiration.

Ryan Kingslien

I remember reading something from Bo Bartlett, the painter, and-

Jon Foster

I love his work actually.

Ryan Kingslien

I do too, god it's so beautiful. He said that his sister was actually a better draftsman, she was a better artist than he was when they were growing up. But she didn't take it anywhere. But he, this became something that was really important for him to grow, to get better, to achieve something there. And the of course look where it's landed him.

Jon Foster

I believe that, and I'm sure you've shown your students his work since you mentioned him because it's really beautiful fascinating work and I like it. There's a certain mood to it. It's not photo realism, it's naturalism or realism, but it's got something else to it, mysterious, which I really like.

But often saying Greg Manchess is not a ... he's not an advocate of the idea of talent. Like oh you have talent, like you were born with talent. He doesn't think that that is it, and I have to agree with him in my thoughts on it, because people weren't going to be saying ... originally as I said, my teachers weren't saying, "You have this amazing talent." But I think what happens, what creativity or what we might be calling talent is an interest, so you're interested, very interested. Then you're also passionate about that interest. So you're gonna spend that time looking and developing and wanting to do things about that interest. And also in hopefully not too unhealthy of a way you're slightly obsessed. And so all those things pooling together have you working at something and practicing something and practicing something.

And art, by the way, really really can relate to practice and training the same way that you do with sports. I think we don't think of it that way. I think we do at times is if we draw more from life we'll get better. But it really is like that, practice more. The more you run a little bit and train smart and look at other things and eat right, whatever, you're going to run further faster. And the same thing with art. It's a matter of getting there and practicing. And that is a nice concrete objectified way of getting better. And sometimes it just seems mysterious to us but that part isn't. It can be more mysterious when we start talking about personal voice of course, because that's so very subjective and comes with life lived and maturity. But it's always developing.

Ryan Kingslien

And Bo Bartlett's a good one for that because you said he has that mystery. And if you look at some of his paintings you can see he's pulling straight from early American, what did they call it, nativism?

Jon Foster

Regionalism. Like Grant Wood.

Ryan Kingslien

Exactly.

Jon Foster

Absolutely, that's a good point. I didn't think of that before, but that's a very pertinent point. If you think Thomas Hart Benton, Grant Wood, those are the two that I know that are regionalists.

Ryan Kingslien

And going back even further, I remember there was a ... Like some of the first painters in America, there was one scene of Bo's where he's got this woman holding the handkerchief, and all these people behind her. And there's a similar painting of a guy in a raft, and they're doing the same kind of thing but he's got [inaudible 00:42:48]. In the very early America. Ah, George Bingham. We're talking like 1830.

Jon Foster

I'll have to look that one up. I'm not familiar with that.

Ryan Kingslien

I forget what they call it. It's before regionalism because it was after ... Thomas Hart Benton was a bit after that.

Jon Foster

Right. He was in the maybe thirties and forties I think.

 

Ryan Kingslien

So I was gonna say, so this idea of finding your voice, of this mystery, I think it's something that really permeates what we do and even in the CG world. So when I hear you talk I hear you talk a lot about there's this uncertainty, a lot of you want to discover. If you found it then it's already done right, you're not interested anymore. Like you're interested in the discovery process.

Jon Foster

Right, but I never ... Well there could be theoretically that danger but I never really feel like I've discovered something completely and figured it out. I never have that. You know I get like slight successes or partial successes or something and the exploration. So it's never ... It hasn't been a problem of say setting forth a task and discovering it, figuring it out then needing to move on. It hasn't been that linear for me.

Ryan Kingslien

But there is, like for you you find joy in the uncertainty of things as opposed to somebody who might find joy in the certainty.

Jon Foster

Yes. Yes. That's a very good point too. I think I trained myself, or at least tried to convince myself that there can be joy in the uncertainty. At least in the art process. Because it was gonna be there, and otherwise, if I didn't embrace that uncertainty and find a joy in that then I was going to be avoiding making art. So I guess it is ... And we're not all the same so there might be other things in the process that cause you guys to hesitate or to procrastinate, and asking yourself what that is. It may not just be one thing either of course, but what that is.

By the way a person, a friend of mine talked to me about ... we talked about procrastination, and oftentimes we think of it as laziness, but it's not. Procrastination is a resistance. There's a resistance to doing something. What is that resistance? And asking yourself that. Fear, schedules, time, something else that you should be doing first, or you think it'll expose you to ... Well fear can cover so many different things, right, in terms of my ability or if I don't do this well then how do I make a living and all across the board. My self worth is all tied up in this. So fear is a big one and encompasses a lot. But asking yourself what that is in your process. Maybe fear is getting lost in the process. I am okay with getting lost in the process, maybe you are not. And that's part of it.

So instead of saying I procrastinate I'm lazy, it's I procrastinate because there's resistance, what is that resistance?

Ryan Kingslien

I remember a moment, I had an artist in the early days of starting the company. I had an artist come and stay with me for a while who was going through some personal stuff. And I was watching him work, and I was in my business brain at that point, there was 20,000 things I had to do and I had to teach and I have to make sure everything was flowing correctly. So I'm over here in one room creating these tutorials and this artwork and everything's very achievement focused. There's no breaks. I try to get everything done in 15 minutes. Change your energy, do it again, do it again. And then I'd come out of the room and I'd see my friend, and he'd be like alternating between TV and working on some sculp. And I'm thinking to myself like how'd this guy get so good? He's the laziest bastard I've ever seen in my life. What the hell's going on with this guy?

But then at the end of the day his work was like 20 times better than mine. Because he's chill.

Jon Foster

He's relaxed with it. And that's definitely a big part of it, he's chill with it. And the other, there is a thing in terms of creative work. You were doing a different kind of work at that time, and if he was doing that kind of work you'd stick to it and there's hours to it. But creative work when you're in the middle of it is actually incredibly taxing. And maybe three hours at a stint is good, but not much more. It's not to say that you just work three hours a day, but the creative stuff that's your fret, and you're working and exploring. Hopefully having fun, not just fretting, but in doing that you can get pretty burnt out in three hours and you need to take a break.

And there's a lot to be said about the zoning out time, half asleep time, even watching TV time. Especially TV that you're just zoning out on. Because it gives your mind a break to expand and you're actually still thinking about the things you're doing a little bit going on in there. What if I do this? What if I add this? What if I do this? If you give yourselves the room to reflect on what you're doing by also giving yourself some recuperation time, then you come back for another two hours or something like that. You can do busy work. You could do the business work, because that's a different kind of mental work that you're doing, not just the creative work. But bouncing around and giving yourself a chance to reflect on what you're doing and zone out is actually very important in the creative process.

Ryan Kingslien

There's this great book by I think it's Daniel Coyle called Talent Code. I think it was the book Talent code. I've read a few, so I'm a little fuzzy on which is which. But he talks about this one snowboarder. Oh no it was The Rise of Superman by somebody else. And he talks about this snowboarder who lives in where they're training for the Olympics and there's all these skiers training for the Olympics there. And he does just off to the side of the main slope where everybody's training, he goes in and he pulls off this five time 360 kind of stunt. He's just sitting there doing this, doing this, doing this. And he pulls off this stunt that none of the people training for the Olympics can do.

And he's not training for the Olympics, he's just some dude who's alternating between going out there having fun and then getting stoned and sitting on the couch. And that's what he does. But he goes off and achieves this massive physical achievement, that people who are waking up at six and eating two eggs in the morning, they're not able to achieve.

Jon Foster

Right. The physical abilities can be a little bit different than the creative ones in terms of when we come to ability. Someone is taller than me or something like that, but this is more of a creative and practicing, but also being relaxed with it. So actually finding his joy in it, not performing ... He's performing for him to enjoy it, and in that joy and in that work, in that relaxed state, he's able to experiment with his body and to feel and to push things, and he's not trying to impress someone else.

Now with art that's another big one, is we're constantly ... It's part of the game, is you want to work for a company and you want to be an illustrator or whatever it is, you want to impress other people. You want people to like it, of course. But when you start working, when that voice is in the back of your head about like I need to practice and get better so that people will look at this and not think I'm an imposter. And that can get in the way. That's one of those voiceovers from your left temporal lobe that really gets in the way of enjoying a creative process, and can ... All kinds of shutdown can happen with that in terms of frustration, because you're doing it for the wrong reason. And so in doing it for the wrong reason, you can get better and do things but the idea of doing it for you, that's why I'm just so much about this idea of playing with the art and enjoying the process.

And so doing in for you you will ... For one thing you'll just love what you're doing. Why take something you love what you're doing and wanted to learn how to do better to make a living out of it and then all of a sudden make it more of a job? So why do that? So learn to still love what you're doing. Of course I want people to like what I do, it's still there. But that's one of those things, I kind of realized that that voice is stronger at times, and when it does get stronger it makes me hesitate, makes me procrastinate, makes me get frustrated. Makes me second guess each brush stroke I'm putting down. And I don't wanna do that. I mean you shouldn't do that, you don't get anywhere with that. Nothing happens. So you have to identify it, trying ...

I mean sometimes I'm better and sometimes I'm not very good at calming it down, but the first step is identifying that. What am I doing this for? Why am I stressed? I'm trying to impress. But you see with that snowboarder, I think that his performance and what he's doing is indicative of him doing it for himself.

Ryan Kingslien

So what do you think are the mistakes that artists make when they're thinking about their career and they're thinking about whether or not they're gonna actually be able to do this. What do you think are just some of the mistakes that they make in terms of the mental game? Because we spent a lot of time talking about the mental game, which I personally think is the more important game. But what are the mistakes that you think people make starting out?

 

Jon Foster

Well the mental game is worrying whether I can do this. I think oddly even with my own insecurities I had this kind of ignorance in a sense of yes I can do this. And in the very beginning, I mean I just wanted to be able to get some work, and I wasn't ... I think I'm glad in the beginning I wasn't thinking I would be reasonably well known for what I'm doing. So it was more like I just needed to get better so that I could get a job here or there and start making a living, kind of thing. So there was that, and there was also that kind of willful blissful ignorance of like sure I can do this and staying with it.

Of course there was other self doubts going on with it, but I think just plowing ahead, plowing ahead and doing it was ... But you know I haven't seen ... The thing is I'm maybe not in tune enough with what's going on in the industry and people finding work or not finding work, that I think is the mistake. Possibly, and I could step on some toes here, I would ... In the industry, say like the gaming industry, when there's maybe not ... The gaming and movie or the concepts, let's say the concept, the pre vis part of the industry. That there is a lot of this is what's out there and this is what they'll wanna see, and there's going to be a repetition of style and work and look. And in doing that, that kind of makes you a dime a dozen instead of more the shiny penny that stands out. And so that's one thing.

The other thing would be not understanding the concept industry in full, that a lot of the representation is more flashy than the reality of the teamwork and the grunt work of everybody working on something, pooling together, having a meeting and editing these things out, going back the same day and revising with the art direction. It's not all Craig Mullins looking illustration. And understanding that, and maybe your portfolio, just finding work in the beginning isn't ... if you don't have that sense of reality of the work situation, that would be another one.

But I haven't ... I think the only other thing I see if someone in terms of maybe trying to find book cover work and their portfolio's just not up there yet. But I also sense a kind of resistance in the person for change, where they're still thinking no this is ... I mean they're not being that belligerent but you can tell there's still a resistance of like no this should be good enough, this is good enough. But they're not getting work and they're not making those changes. And that would be one of them, that mentality. I mean I've even have that mentality when I was younger kind of thing, of like this should be good enough, why not? But it's not and then being able to change, being able to say, "Okay I'm not good enough yet." And not ... Well you don't just sit here, "Okay I will change." But go back and practice more and try and do things a little bit differently.

But I'm coming up a little short on any other mistakes. Do you have anything in mind?

Ryan Kingslien

No that was great, the idea of being too tight and all of that. Let's do this. So we're right there at an hour, thank you so much for taking the time and for walking us through some of your art and thinking this through. I wanna open this up to about two questions for you guys. And you gotta start typing fast. So those of you who are watching either place [inaudible 00:58:49] or I think it's over there on the guild in the system, and you guys are in GoToMeeting.

Let's throw some questions up there. Get me a better question than that Ewan, that's a little ... I'm not quite sure how to ... I don't wanna phrase it negative.

All right, so for me, the key takeaway from this has been this concept of exploration and discovery is one of the core foundational processes for your work.

Jon Foster

I can also, and to just briefly show you ... Because in terms of that idea of the exploration, because I know that you do so much with ZBrush too. This was a big one for me in finding a new joy, was the ZBrush. I actually ... It was more I loved making things in ZBrush that I decided to start using them to help with illustrations. So that was another, finding something you're interested in, exploring it, finding a passion sitting there and delving into the depths of ... It was another kind of renaissance of the idea of art.

So it was for the illustrations but it was also for the process of making in 3D. And that was important. So it was ... I just thought, I didn't know. It was one of those things that you guys are so involved with. I'm not like the best ... I do okay but it's just more for the reference. Well there was the waves and stuff for her. These things, putting them together. You can maybe recognize some of the illustrations and playing around. So it was another experiment in playing around because this is actually the chapter pieces and then playing around with certain rendering and certain stylistic effects that way leading to other ideas of things that ... These grouping of deers and the cartoon shader and key shot and playing with transparency and overlap is leading to other things and ideas for me for personal work. And these are like also references for professional work for Sideshow toys, the Scientific American things from me, et cetera.

So that was ... To throw that in in terms of that exploration of always ... There's always something on the horizon.

Ryan Kingslien

That's amazing. It's wonderful to see that. And it actually makes me wonder about your compositions, like how you start to develop, what's the process for developing these? Because some of these compositions that you have are just very unique and very ... There's a strong abstract, there's a strong shape presence to them.

Jon Foster

I mean I love composition so it's thinking a lot about the placement, the flow and the way the eye moves around. It's actually not that literal as I'm doing it, it's more like I start sketching and developing and putting things down as they can ... I'm sorry I don't remember what our schedule was and I don't mean to go over on you guys or anything.

Ryan Kingslien

No, all good.

Jon Foster

But the thumbnails, so I do have some of these thumbnailing process, which you're not gonna nail down the composition completely in a thumbnail but you're getting an idea of placement and shape. But they're mostly just for me to read. These are all sketching thumbnails.

So some of them are very sketchy and some with a little bit of computer stuff added in, and later on I'll develop some more computer stuff. But I'm still ... I mean you're just seeing these things as individuals but all of it is like move this here, make this bigger, make this smaller, change this angle on that. Because there's an intuitive feel but the intuitive comes from practice, practice, practice and doing things. So I'm just constantly kind of adjusting. That's why I love playing, which is value because it is just about the core essence of shape and value, and that all becomes components of composition from the get go.

So these are the explorations all for one particular cover. I don't normally do this many, but this one had a bunch of explorations. And then you hit on a certain idea that could lead to another idea, where this Parker character with the burning footprints on the hill and then the factory building plays a role in the background. But then switching that and there he is kind of ... This idea of the big hill and the factory on top and him at the bottom. You can't really tell but burning footprints and other kinds of things maybe ghosted into the landscape. Changing those things, in terms of overlap, move the horizon line down. These are all things that I'm doing on purpose. I'm like well maybe if I make the factory bigger and move the horizon line down I could have the Parker character a little bit bigger and overlap more of the building in, maybe go into the sky.

And so that's going to this. So moving it around and micro adjusting the trail, the burning footprints, his pose. I mean I would work on his pose a bit or the shape of the buildings and the factory, because that's all important. The idea of mirroring shapes, like this is the path, the footpath going off this way, but then also the smoke trail's going off that way. But I don't do that right on purpose in the beginning, I might start with something and then you feel like something needs to go in a certain direction. It's probably because intuitively you're seeing other stronger directional forces and mirroring would be better than the same. Like if it went at an angle up into the right and this one did an angle up into the right it might just feel kinda static.

So again, still, working it out. What's his pose? Variations on that. Then it was the finished piece. So that process of ... and I'm sorry, I went off on a tangent here. Your original question was about developing the composition. And it develops through the piece too. I would have changed up ... even though it would be a black and white of this version that I'm not showing, they were close but not exactly this version. But it changed, like the building would have changed a little bit, the sky, the smoke changed, his hand or the lighting on him, or maybe the scale of him for sure would have changed. Probably I would have made him ... Maybe he was too small so I decided to make him bigger. That will all change even during the more advanced process of adding color in. Nothing is set in stone, and whatever's gonna look better and feel better, it's still plastic throughout.

Ryan Kingslien

That's awesome. That answers the question quite well.

All right guys well I think we got everybody's questions answered. So you guys know the drill, I'll put this up on the guild, or I think it's actually broadcasting there. Leave me a note, let me know one thing that you really picked up out of this, and we can let John know what that one is as well. So just leave a comment down below the video. John, again man, thank you so much for taking the time.

Jon Foster

Thank you guys for inviting me, I appreciate it. It was a lot of fun and great questions.

Ryan Kingslien

Great, thank you. All right well take care of yourself.

Jon Foster

Okay, you too.

Ryan Kingslien

See you guys.

Jon Foster

Bye.

Ryan Kingslien

Bye.